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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1000
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Posted - 2014.11.24 16:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Atiim wrote:How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen.
...you just don't understand how to actually approach rationality do you? The Swarm lock-on box is enormous: it doesn't actually matter how much of the screen KT fills because it is almost impossible to lose a lock-on unless you forget to move half an inch with the right stick or a building gets in the way.
Atiim wrote:Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not.
As someone pointed out, an Afterburner takes you out of the fight almost as surely as death does: you are forced away for a long period of time (considering that even with max skills you're looking at a 26s cooldown, plus however long you were running for) in a battle that lasts between 7-15 minutes (roughly, not exactly checked every battle, though that's the range I estimate) - assuming a 15 minute game, that 30+ second downtime is 1/30th of the battle.
A Swarmer will run off an ADS during their first encounter, and any additional encounter where the ADS tries to locate and remove the Swarmer but is run off is more time where they are incapable of assisting the team: despite what some might think about ADS pilots, a lot of us actually try to help with our presence, not just try to farm kills although without a good comm system it's not easy to use the full uplift and redeployment capacity, making clearing areas one of the simplest solutions to help.
Anyway, point being that escaping with an Afterburner might preserve the ship, there is little to no way to fight a Swarmer because there is no skilful or tactical method to defeating them: a Forge Gunner can be dodged and the charge time can be manipulated to at least get return fire in, whereas the Swarmer is either dead in the first second or two, flee, or die in return.
Mejt0 wrote:Pilots in pythons eat swarms and easly kill the ones wielding them.
Cuz they have 80% resist vs swarms with activated hardeners.
This is how hardeners work, not the 80 that you state. With double hardeners active versus a swarm launcher (explosive, -20/+20 profile) the shield vehicle is effectively resisting 68.5% of the damage received.
Wiyrkomi (312) * 1 CxDMod (1.07: 333.84) * 2 CxDMod (1.0602: 353.94) = 353.94 per missile.
353.94 * 0.8 (explosive profile: 283.15) * 0.6 (first hardener: 169.89) * 0.656 (second hardener: 111.45)
With double hardeners active a Wiyrkomi (non-MinCom) SL with two complex damage modules will cause 111.45 damage per missile (enough to prevent shield regeneration) and 445.8 per volley of four. With MinCom 5, that is 122.595; 490.38 per volley.
Happy maths everyone 
(It's not perfect, since the stacking penalty is marginally worse - actually *0.869 I think it is - but it is pretty accurate to the actual application.)
Mejt0 wrote:Ps. About ADS v Tank. Tank will get wrecked in open. Everytime. Unless you will jump out with IAFG then you will get extra time to flee into redline.
Indeed,the biggest threat comes from the dead zone above the turret elevation ceiling. I'm all for missiles and blasters having a slightly increased elevation angle: personally I feel that we need better designed maps, allowing railguns to receive a range buff (essentially we need a deeper battlefield, so that Railguns can stretch their legs without having redline immunity zones.)
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1006
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Posted - 2014.11.25 04:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Just playing on my vehicle alt yesterday, some guy is swarming my grimsnes off an elevated position, he hits me with 3 swarms, which I easily tank and rep back in under ~10 seconds.
We ran away pretty quickly of course and decided to come back after repping and kill him.
So we turn around, come back, and shoot him 3 times, and he was dead.
Firstly, that is a Grimsnes, not an Incubus. Grimmies have better overall tank: higher base HP; more slots, so higher potential buffer and/or repair rate; more ancillary slots, especially for the Grimly, letting you have full tank and AB and/or scanner (for IDing enemies), damage mod (higher chance to one-shot) or mCRU (for pilot points and/or people to drop out near enemy AV, it you're lucky.)
Secondly, your engagement happened exactly as I stated: you ran away to rep up after giving the Swarmer 75-150WP (triple what you got for killing them.) As an Incubus, you would have had less time to identify the AVer (because you would have had to run earlier,due to lower tank.)
Is that, you shot and hit three times (point: duration of the second engagement)?
Did they fire back at all (point: depending on length of engagement determines how many more WP he farmed off of you)?
Were they prepared for you (point: if prepared,the impulse effects are in play)?
Was it an actually attack run on that Swarmer specifically, and they had remained in the same place (point: if no location change then a bad AVer; if not specifically targeting them, then more likely to be chance that aided the kill)?
Vesta Opalus wrote:1. He shoots me with full load from his swarm launcher. I am at no time in danger of dying because I can both tank through all his damage or just run away and escape all but the first volley.
As I referred to above, the Grimsnes is far more resilient than the Incubus, so it is disingenuous of you to apply the exact same principles. Additionally, if you are able to outrep a solo Swarmer that suggests that (without specific numbers) that you have a high SP investment and reasonably high-grade modules and the Swarmer was using low-grade modules/weapons.
Without numbers I can only guess that the target was using militia or STD level Swarms (presumably STD, due yo your statement of three volleys.) Even a STD level swarm does 260/missile; 1040/volley; 3120/magazine (without skills: roughly 610 DPS including lock-on/lock-on delay; 732 DPS vs armour; 549 vs 1 Hardener); 325 DPS including reload (no reload speed bonuses whatsoever.)
What these numbers suggest is that even without any skills (so that would assume an Aur/LP version) at all, the STD swarm launcher has the capacity to do serious damage to an armour vehicle in a short period of time.
Vesta Opalus wrote:2. We rep all the damage back in about 10 seconds, and decide to come back and kill him.
As above, I gather from your statements that you are using a primarily rep-tanked fit, presumably around 250-300/s. Assuming a STD level enemy (see above numbers) then we can reasonably assume that you'd need 3 Complex Light Armour Repairer (a relatively high SP investment) or several lower-grade Heavy Repairers with maxed Repair Systems Skill (a high SP investment; also certainly requiring a reasonable degree of Armour Fitting Optimisation) such that the difference in invested SP is incredibly disproportionate. Without the invested repair SP, the Grimsnesis most certainly not capable of resisting even a STD Swarm Launcher 'without fear of death.'.
Stating that an entirely uninvested AV should be able to remove a medium-investment+ vehicle used with any level of certainty is frankly laughable. Considering that the above list of skills is ignoring any other SP invested on either side: even assuming STD through Aur/LP, the Swarm is on at least a comparably even footing, while having the inherent advantages built-in of lock-on mechanisms, tracking projectiles and impulse effects.
Vesta Opalus wrote:3. We come back and kill him, without any sort of danger to ourselves.
As part of my above questions touched upon, what was the situation when you returned? Were they in the same location? Had they been distracted (on their roof) by infantry? What were they engaged in doing as you came back?
What I am asking is, were they specifically engaging you (on the roof, away from enemy infantry, giving them freedom from that distraction) and thus when you returned, if you were not almost immediately under fire then I can only presume a low experience (not simply low SP) player. If you were under fire immediately, how was the engagement for your gunner, and what were the impulse effects like?
How effective a team are you both? As a gunner for Pvt Numnutz, I can make shots that he,when he guns, finds difficult - we've flown dozens, maybe hundreds, of hours together I can anticipate him and the dropship. In other words, as a team are you more effective than as two separate players? Do you feel that 2v1 is unfair? If not, why should the 1 be able to fight you both off?
Vesta Opalus wrote:So. If we look at the above, we see that a dropship is engaging the kind of fitting that is supposed to be its direct in game counter without any fear of death whatsoever, and completely overwhelming and killing them with trivial effort. What do you think is overpowered in this situation? Pro tip: it isnt the swarm launcher.
Pro tip: a single anecdote about one likely low experience/low SP player being killed by a two-merc dropship (one that is more resilient than the ADS which most talk about and have been referring to) is not a good argument for the ADS and DSs in general being overpowered. Especially when your statement of 'no fear of death whatsoever' shows either an entire lack of reality when it comes to DPS, or failing to acknowledge the skill/SP investment difference between you and your opponent.
[Continued below]
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1006
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Posted - 2014.11.25 04:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote: Now on top of that think about the rest of the game for the dropship and the swarm launcher.
If I continue playing in my drop ship, I can expect similar immunity to death unless I am attacked by 2-3 or more AV players simultaneously while I am in a bad position. I will go through the rest of the match slaughtering infantry with little or no opposition.
Again, your statements of 'immunity to death' are vastly overstated. 2 STD swarms in coordination will cause over 6000 damage to your dropship in around 5 seconds. Now consider a solo player with actual SP investment (faster lock-on time; increased damage per volley from Proficiency and/or damage mods; suits bonused for the task) who will be much more capable of dealing with you - then consider that we're still talking about a two-merc (multiple players) Grimsnes (more resilient than the Incubus) and that solo player can potentially down your Grimsnes alone (MinCom5, Prof 5, 1 CxDMod in a STD suit with CBR7 costs around 25,000 ISK, and deals around 1450 DPS vs Armour: still think you can take it?) and mitigate the major downside of AV, being vulnerable to infantry.
Your statements have been unbalanced from the beginning and show bias or a lack of knowledge how SP interacts with the power of AV. An ADS is of at least equal SP investment to a PRO AVer and have a far greater investment in terms of ISK: the issue is not the greater total investment, it is that a single mid-invested Swarmer can render a single fully invested ADS near obsolete with one volley - run or die, because there is no fighting back, and you have to make that decision almost immediately following the first impact on your shields.
Vesta Opalus wrote: If the swarm launcher continues playing in his swarm fit, he will spend the entire match desperately dodging enemy infantry while futilely trying to fire missiles at my dropship or other vehicles, all of which could end his clones pathetic life at their leisure.
Firstly, one of your points was about the Swarmer being elevated. Alongside the Commando suit a Swarmer can mitigate the weaknesses of carrying a Swarm Launcher (weakness to other infantry), gain the benefits of being the second toughest non-Sentinel dropsuit (I believe Assaults can be tougher if they choose to be.) Combined, elevated Swarmer Commandos can lock down an area and farm an inordinate amount of WPs from enemy vehicles: that they have invested SP is perfectly reasonable, as is the reward for driving vehicles away; but what is not legitimate is the complete ease with which someone can do so - firing a Swarm is relatively effortless and there is next to tracking a target, making application of damage incredibly effective.
So, your point quoted above says that the Swarmer must avoid infantry (mitigated by using a Commando, or elevation, or another vehicle to evade infantry/follow the target); the engagement of vehicles is futile (yet heavily rewarded and also incredibly simple to be effective); and that everything can end their lives at leisure - as far as the ADS and DSs generally are concerned, it most definitely is not leisurely, due to not only having to deal with impulse effects but also because the engagement is mostly instigated by the Swarmer, giving them first-mover advantages.
Essentially what I am saying is that the tribulations of the Swarmer are pretty damn light.
Vesta Opalus wrote: Sure sounds like swarm launchers are op, man they sure do need a nerf. Also buff dropships, I mean, they might die if a bunch of players switch to AV, sit in a single spot, and all fire at once if I make the mistake of sitting still like a ****** for too long!
I think most people I have seen posting on the anti-Swarm side of things are calling for a change in the modus operandi: the simplicity of use and ease of damage application are overly rewarded and have led to an enormous and inordinate increase in Swarm usage because it is so simple to just strip a heap of WPs from any vehicle that pokes its turret up without having to put much effort or thought into it.
If Swarms changed such that they required more effort and personal skill in a way that did not make the far more restrictive Forge Gun obsolete, they would of course get corresponding buffs to keep their power at the relevant point on the power curve. At the moment, Swarms are operating far more effectively than any other form of AV.
Nothing Certain wrote:You know how you can tell swarms are OP? Because tankers wear a swarm fit in their tank and when they see another tank they pop out and insta-kill them using no-skill swarms. Oh wait, I've never seen anybody do that.
I see many tankers (and one dropship pilot) who do this: it's either a Swarm, Forge or HMG. Many times have I dropped down above an HAV only for them to pop out and launch their volley/glowy blue ball at me.
Insta-kill is some hyperbole, but it is almost certainly insta-save, because the ADS either dodges the FG (or gets hit) making it an FG/ADS fight...except they can hop in to their probably regen'd HAV/they continue firing at you as you frantically try to destroy their HAV before they slap you out of the sky; or if Swarms, you either finish off their HAV in a shot or two and try and run, or just straight up run.
[Continued below]
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1006
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Posted - 2014.11.25 04:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote: It's probably because they are proud tankers and decided that it is unfair gameplay to jump out of their tank in an OP suit to kill a hapless victim. Oh wait...
Not sure what you're saying. It's pretty ridiculous that people can teleport in/out of vehicles, especially enclosed ones, in the blink of an eye. As a staunch ADS pilot I often go down with my ship unless I see a specific opportunity to use my links (my Logi-pilot suit having an Axis rep, Links and a Flaylock making it unsuitable for dropping into the fight) or otherwise go down with it to gain Intel on what killed me. It's far too easy to escape a dead vehicle - HAV pilots drop out a moment before death and DSs have way too long before death.
I'd love to see pilots (specifically HAV/DS driver/operators, maybe also gunners but not passengers like the LAV side seat or dropship bay seats) have a good 2-5 second delay on vehicle exiting as they have to unbuckle themselves and climb out.
Nothing Certain wrote: Ok, I think there are some tweaks that should be made and ADS prices should drop, but it is also clear that vehicle users have a double standard and believe that vehicles should make them more powerful than any infantry, even those specifically designed to kill them.
I don't know. There are many pilots who have posted ADS/AV feedback in the last couple of months who have been advocating balance, and the majority of people o see posting about Swarms simply dislike the simplicity of them allowing them to outperform all other AV.
Again, I'm an ADS pilot and will always be so: been there in the Dark Ages of 400m Swarms, 1k Forges and insane redline Rails. I want to see AV that can kill me but I want to be able to remove them if I am skilful enough: Swarmers I cannot fight, because no amount of skill will help, only running immediately and at top speed, or double stacking hardeners and hoping one of your spammed lands vaguely near them before cooldowns kick in.
Oh, and the other thing I want is to actually get to do the strafing runs that I am told by Rattati I should do. I'll happily take an EHP reduction if I can actually put enough fire down to make strafing feasible instead of the two missiles per run we have right now...grumble...
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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